Marnie Swindells x Office Freedom Interview

The big BBC One reality show The Apprentice celebrates its 20th anniversary next week, so Office Freedom spoke with the 2023 series winner Marnie Swindells for her take on the programme - and her thoughts on business, flexible working and more.

Swindells received the £250,000 investment from Lord Sugar for her boxing gym, the Bronx, which is situated in South London.

She still works closely with the tech billionaire and has negotiated not only coming through the scrutiny of the boardroom but also plotting a path through life running a successful business.

How did winning the apprentice shape your career trajectory?

Marnie Swindells: When I won the show, it put everything into perspective. It completely changed how I viewed myself, what I wanted and my goals. They all prioritised this tunnel vision of just wanting my business to be as successful as it could be. Nothing else mattered, I prioritised business over everything.

I had my moments of thinking that was the wrong thing to do, but upon reflection on where I am now, the people I have in my life now and the people who have supported me, I'm so glad I didn't let anyone step in the way and I kept that focus.

What was the transition like from the show’s intense environment to your post-show career?

Marnie Swindells: You just have to realise the weight of the opportunity and not fluff it up - it's a big deal. Sometimes I sit there and I think I share a bank account with that man [Lord Sugar]. You have to reassess what's most important in your life and what you are prepared to do for it.

Is there a negative to coming through the Apprentice process, maybe having to work harder with some to be taken seriously?

Marnie Swindells: I think it's the opposite. I think people at the top see what you've done, see that you've put yourself onto a TV show and they know what it takes to do that. People at the top generally have a wider understanding of a lot of different things. They've got a bit more common knowledge of the TV world or the entertainment industry and they've got a grasp of it.

I think it's much easier to gain their respect because they can see the arduous journey you've taken to get there and recognise that's your only shot to get a man like Lord Sugar on your side. I think they would believe in you more than the everyday person who just watches it as TV. They can see beyond how we are portrayed and imagine that there's more to us.

How do you approach working with colleagues who've got very different personalities and work styles?

Marnie Swindells: Variety is the spice of life. I believe that different dynamics, different perspectives, and different characters create something special. I think if we were all the same, we wouldn't have anything new to offer. That contrasting spark of different personalities makes magic happen, but it's also how you

manage that - you need to make sure they don't outweigh each other or cause too much of a spark that causes an explosion - the key is balancing it.

Make sure everybody feels heard, make sure you're taking into consideration what people say and try to appreciate that people have different perspectives sometimes.

Sometimes I can be guilty of thinking I'm right a lot of the time and it's my way or the highway. But I try to have open conversations where I let people tell me what they think I'm doing wrong. People have said they wished I would trust their perspectives more, so it's something I need to work on and that's how I'm recognising the importance of it.

As a business owner, you are so invested in making sure everything works. How do you approach employees who may not be as invested as you are?

I think culture is the biggest power tool within a business. I believe the team at Bronx are equally, if not sometimes more invested than me, in making this work. They believe that if the gym wins, they win. They'll be part of it. They feel like this is our business and because of that, if I'm failing or if I'm slipping, they'll pick me up.

That's an incredible culture and probably one of the things I'm most proud of in the business is having that relationship with my team.

There's something special about an honest working environment where there is respect and formalities but, there's also a sense of openness both ways. I can be open with them and say I don't like how you're doing something and they can be open with me and say they wish that I was a bit more of this or that.

All the contestants are pursuing businesses as SME’s, like yours. How has the Budget impacted things for SME’s? Have the changes made it harder for businesses like yours and theirs to succeed and employ people?

Marnie Swindells: The biggest financial impact for us has been the cost of living and the rising energy bills over the budget. That’s had to be taken seriously - we have a sauna that's on all the time, the lights are on all the time, the showers are being used all the time…so, as we are quite energy-heavy and that's probably had the most impact in terms of how the climates affected us.

Can you see the benefits of flexible working?

Marnie Swindells: It's a tricky one for me…and I think Lord Sugar would agree with me on this. I know from personal experience that he likes his workers in an office, old school at a desk. I think there's clearly a financial benefit to cutting out the office. We can all work remotely now, but do we want to ruin that dynamic? I think you do that, you lose culture - such as seeing each other every day, and being able to have a little chitchat about things that aren't involved with work, which keeps us together. We know about each other's family or when each other's birthday is, and what people did at the weekend. And that's how you create that sense of allegiance.

If you're meeting someone on a call on Zoom for one single purpose and you have an agenda, all of that stuff falls away. So, yes, there's a cost-benefit to getting rid of the office, but at what cost?

Costs of running a bespoke office are ever increasing. How do you see the benefits of using flexible offices, particularly for SMEs going forward?

Marnie Swindells: As a business in my position, I think that would deviate from creating a sense of community. People know that if they walk into the gym, there'll always be someone they can chat with because it's our space and we own that space.

However, I do think for different kinds of businesses and especially startups, the idea of flexible working spaces is an incredible opportunity for people. You don’t have the commitment of a long lease on an office and have the constant bills of an office, but can still have a place where they can meet professionally. Having that as an option takes away any barrier to people being able to start their businesses because they are facilitated in that way.

What advice would you give to someone juggling a high-pressure work environment with ambitious goals in today's workplaces?

Marnie Swindells: The most important thing you can be is honest and vulnerable - that’s a really powerful tool. I thought that I had to keep it all within me and as the leader, I had to make sure that any emotions stayed back and behind closed doors.

But, I found there's been a real power to opening up about my personal struggles and getting my team to invest in me as a person. I think that's where that allegiance comes in as I'm not the boss that's separate from them - I’m the boss that's a part of them, that they want to uplift and I truly feel a real sense of support. I feel like if I had a huge accident tomorrow and couldn’t come into work, my team would figure it out for me, which I'm not sure if a lot of business owners can say - I don't think they've taken the time to appreciate and respect their team.

We have to ask you about The Apprentice - what are those moments like just before you’re about to go in the boardroom?

Marnie Swindells: It's the warm-up for a fight because when you watch it on TV, from the perspective after it's all been filmed, you're watching it as entertainment and it's fun. But when you're in that moment, you're thinking ‘This is a life-changing opportunity, this is a do-or-die moment where everything could change’. Having Lord Sugar as your business partner is tangible and within grasp.

For me, it's fight or flight and my instinct is always to fight, so I went into every boardroom ready to speak my mind and give it my all. There's a saying in boxing which is to leave it all in the ring, and I felt like I did that in every boardroom - I left it all in there.

In The Apprentice, can you have tactics, because in some respects your chances are reliant on the abilities of others?

Marnie Swindells: The sentiment behind the show is that you complete the task as a group and that is how you win a task. However, I think a real test is people's character and how they individually respond to these different dynamics. Whether they can keep their cool, keep a level head, do they fold under pressure, do they tell the truth? Even though you are beholden to your teammates, it's how you interact in that dynamic that I think Lord Sugar wants to see.

That's where honesty comes out because you have to be accountable. If you mess up you have to say it. But equally, he wants to see you be able to honestly confront someone and say, you're responsible, this is your issue. You have to know and be able to identify where the fault lies and how you can fix it.

Who has been your favourite ever contestant on The Apprentice?

Marnie Swindells: I mean, I'd have to say someone like Ricky Martin, who’s made the most money from it. He’s taken the show for what it's worth. Some people come out of it and become celebrities and influencers and take that course and then some people come out of it and make their money. They're the people that I admire the most because they are living proof of what the show can do.

What are your thoughts on taking the celebrity influencer route?

Marnie Swindells: You’re given a platform by going on the show, so there's a natural gravitation towards you because there's a natural interest in what you're doing and what you're up to. It's easy to fall into that world and to get pulled away from business for these sorts of easy frivolous opportunities, but they're temporary. You earn longevity and respect by taking that investment, turning it into a well-run, established business, and creating a legacy.

Did anything surprise you behind the scenes?

Marnie Swindells: No, but I’m coming from a different perspective having been in the ring. The idea of arguing and being okay after was second nature to me, so I wasn't surprised by the dynamics of going onto the show when you're against each other, but then you go to the house and you're good friends - There's a real sense of camaraderie. The tasks surprised me - flying out to Dubai and Antigua in the first week, which was incredible.

What was the transition like from the show’s intense environment to your post-show career?

Marnie Swindells: More could be done around the aftercare and making sure people's heads are okay throughout the process. I expected a little bit more support at times and it felt like a checkbox exercise. I think they do genuinely care, but whether they have enough resources and protocols in place to protect from people having a bad emotional experience with it, I’m not sure.

You go from being an absolute nobody, then overnight the whole of the UK has an opinion on what you're doing and is watching you intensely - not just on Thursday nights, but throughout the week they want to know what you're doing and who you are. It’s a serious roller coaster and journey.

The emotional impact of that should also be taken extremely seriously, especially when we know from past experiences such as what's happened to ex-Love Islanders. Generally, you need a thick skin to go on the show. They do test that and carry out interviews with you alongside psychologists, but throughout the process, I didn't feel like we were always listened to.

The production team know what they're doing with the show and they're well accustomed to it. But until you're in those shoes and you've walked that path, you don't know what it feels like to be thrust into the

spotlight and you don't know the impact or the connotations of that. So when you're experiencing it from a candidate's perspective, I didn't feel like that was always given enough weight.

What’s Lord Sugar like off-camera?

Marnie Swindells: I think he's a very honest man - what you see is what you get. He is respected for being that authentic. I don't think there's any facade on the TV or in our board meetings. He's the same as he was in the boardroom, he just has a little more time and is a little more patient. He truly cares -I don't think there's any question of that. I think even when you watch him on TV, you can see that he's passionate about finding the right business partner and he's very fair. He allows you to say your peace, but he has a good instinct and he's a man who knows exactly what he wants.

What is Baroness Brady really like - is she hands on, full of advice?

Marnie Swindells: Baroness Brady is very astute - nothing gets past her. I think she's the perfect partner for Lord Sugar for the show, as is Tim Campbell. They're both Lord Sugar's eyes and ears on the ground - he puts a lot of faith in them and they do not disappoint. They report back every little detail, as do the producers.

It's not just what's happening in the tasks that get reported back. Our behaviour, who we are as people, and how we respond in every single situation are being fed back to Lord Sugar - that's why your true character is always under assessment.

The show's contract rules state: 'Candidates shall not engage in any intimate physical contact and/ or sexual activity with any other candidate or crew member or member of the production team during the competition. It’s thought a contestant has broken this rule this year - what are your thoughts on this?

Marnie Swindells: I think it is absolutely ridiculous if I'm honest. To achieve a spot out of hundreds of thousands of applicants and you've made it to the final 18, then you're going to jeopardise that over a momentary pleasure that could wait? I can't see any valid reason to prioritise that in those circumstances. I have no patience for it whatsoever and I hope that Lord Sugar reflects on it that way as well. I would imagine he has no tolerance for that - there's no place for it.

How do you think the series has evolved and what's kept it so popular?

Marnie Swindells: Naturally the show will change as times have changed. For example, as social media has evolved, so will the needs of the contestants. It's imperative in business to have that social media presence - you can't do without it.

It's fair to say it's evolved and I think it's unfair to say the standard of candidates has gone down. I think they have just maneuvered into a different arena whereby popularity, appeal, and your aesthetic are all as equally important as your business acumen, whereas in the past that wouldn't have been as important.

There are more criteria now to consider and I think the show reflects that. In the first series, you won a job with Lord Sugar and now you win an investment. Giving someone a £250,000 investment versus giving someone a salary is a higher threshold anyway, so I'm sure it's harder to win from that perspective.